bjdbaby? Probably not legit, but asking just in case...

[Wardah]

Now, I've already stated where I stand on recasts, so I won't repeat myself, but I will add that it is really unfair of anyone to make claims that designing a doll really adds so much to the cost.

I wasn't saying that. Quite the opposite. The recasters prove that the actual production isn't that much of the price and MH proves that designing them doesn't add much either. The only thing that accounts for their price is the "limited-ness" of it and there really is no reason they should be so limited despite causing DoA to have shitfits that "anyone could have a doll".

[SoapBubbles]

Well, most people have already stated what I think about re-casts so I won't bother to say any of my more general views on this. But I just wanted to say that I think there's a certain 'value' in having limited edition dolls and such.

I feel it's kind of... The privilege and 'pride' the artists can have in making those dolls. I don't think it's unfair if they want to make a certain doll more 'special' by limiting the number they release into the world. A lot of doll companies don't have a wide choice in the colour of their dolls. But when they DO release dolls in an unusual colour (for their individual company), don't they also tend to put more effort into giving the doll more 'character' by making them suited to be presented in that colour?

Do I still want the companies to give me more colour choices and sell more of that discontinued head? Well, yeah. I want it. But I don't think it's 'unfair' of them to create certain limits like that, and if they charge me extra because of it then I'll buy it if it's worth it and ignore it if I think they're just overcharging. For re-casting companies to disregard these choices the original companies have made, it's rather... Sad. It's not just about the money, although that's probably a pretty big portion of the 'problem'. I think it's more important to respect the pride of the artist.

tl;dr -> If re-cast companies don't like limiting the quantity of dolls and want to release them in every colour of the rainbow, they should make their own sculpts. The original artist has the privilege to do whatever they want to make their work more 'special' if they wish, and I want to respect the pride of the artist.

--(I added the following after seeing a new post when I pressed 'Preview':)--

As for the high cost of original 'big' company dolls... There is also the aspect that they charge more than needed because 'they think they're worth it' and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing to do (don't get me wrong, I do also agree with the fact there is a slightly higher cost because they need to pay the original artist). If your dolls are much prettier and better quality than other companies, why can't you feel proud of that and get some more compensation for it? Think about a different, more common situation: If I'm more hard-working and efficient at work than other employees, I'd want to be paid more than the others who slack off. Even if my employers would gain more profit from just paying me minimum wage for doing more, I want a higher wage if I'm worth it.

EDIT: Woaaah, my post is long. Eeeh, well, I don't plan on debating further about this so please forgive me for rambling on so much in this single post.

[Evelien]

As for the high cost of original 'big' company dolls... There is also the aspect that they charge more than needed because 'they think they're worth it' and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing to do (don't get me wrong, I do also agree with the fact there is a slightly higher cost because they need to pay the original artist). If your dolls are much prettier and better quality than other companies, why can't you feel proud of that and get some more compensation for it?

This. I agree so much with this.

[Kirahfaye]

I still don't like the idea of offering recasts that are exactly like dolls currently on the market but I don't see it as bad when it is a discontinued sculpt since if the company really wanted more revenue from the sculpt they shouldn't have stopped making it. I also don't see it as bad when someone offers casts in colors the original wasn't made in because again, if the company really wanted the money they should have offered it in other colors.

Because it doesn't belong to the recaster! That's what makes it wrong. They are taking something that doesn't belong to them, they didn't create, they didn't invest time, money and care in, that they have no right to and they are making a profit on because they stole it. It doesn't matter if we, the public, want more of a limited edition or want a sculpt in different colors than the creator make available. That is the original company's decision and no one has the right, legally or morally, to decide "well to hell with them, I want it so I'm going to do it and make money off their work". Just because something can be done, and a certain segment of the public is willing to pay for it, doesn't make it right. It's theft.

[iron_dog]

Limited doesn't always equal big bucks. I have a limited doll (LE Doll/AoD collab Adonis, there were only 38 of him made) and he cost something like $350 and that included a face up. I've never seen another one of him anywhere. I have a limited run Longway by Camilla Dynasty (I'm unsure of how many were made) and he was around $150. While I have seen a few CD dolls in the MP on DoA, they're usually few and far between and never a Longway. I think my guy is the only one on DoA in the CD database.

There are times when we want something specific in a doll and it just isn't possible with what the company is making. We, as customers, can ask the company for things, but the company is under no obligation to give us what we ask for. As the copyright holders (and they do have copyright for their designs for heads/bodies and even costume designs), it is their right to make those choices whether we like it or not.

I needed Dak to be pitch black but the company that made his sculpt didn't do black resin. So I had him dyed. I needed Gunari to have dragon feet but the company that made his sculpt didn't do that. So he's off being modded. I needed a chibi version of my favourite doll to be a tan that was close to AoD tan and found out that the company that made the doll I'd use will sometimes do custom blends *yea!*. A years discontinued doll required steady MP stalking, but I got him and am thrilled with him.

Getting what you want is often possible if you're willing to mod (or pay someone to do it for you) or you stalk MP's/auctions like a stalker thing. But in the current world of instant satisfaction and something for nothing, there's people who'd rather support stealing because that'll get them what they want right away.

[kiki-chan78]

Higher prices on the bigger company dolls is actually really easy to understand. They are well known names, so a lot of people want them. To curtail the number of people who are willing to purchase, they raise the price. By bringing up the profit margin, and losing some sales, they are still making the same amount of money while lowering the amount of dolls made.

Most of the 'big' companies have a fixed capacity of dolls that they can make in any given period of time. Lowering the prices would mean LOTS more people will purchase the dolls, which will create a backlog of work and unhappy customers.

If they start cranking out more dolls than they can comfortably produce, mistakes will happen. Which will again result in unhappy customers.

One of the reasons that recasters have such lower prices, is they aren't paying for the prototyping part of the doll manufacturing, nor are they having to deal with retail mark-up. Most recast sites, are that. There are no further overhead costs.

For those that think prototyping out a doll doesn't add much to the cost... before getting to the *first* resin casting phase, Allison cost around $600-$800 in prints and re-prints.

There are three sets of silicon molds between the printed version of Allison and the final version. It takes over a gallon and a half of silicon to make a full set of molds for Allison, and he isn't that big of a doll. Total, I used about five gallons of silicon. Silicon is about $100 a gallon. So that's another $500 there.

I haven't even talked about the additional sculpting materials used to modify the printed version of allison. Also haven't listed the sand-paper in various grits, the resin itself, OR the equipment needed to cast such as a pressure pot and compressor. The pressure pot and compressor was about $300 combined.

So... not including any resin at all. Allison cost around $1,400-$1,600 to bring to completion.

I'd LOVE to slap a $500 retail price tag on my boy. If I thought people would pay it, I WOULD. Unfortunately, 1:3 scale dolls that retail in the $400 price range are harder to sell.

Since my boys are going through Junkyspot, I don't get paid retail for my boys. I get paid a wholesale price. Their casting is then paid for out of that wholesale price. By the time everything is said and done, I only get about 10%-20% of the retail cost. This is for my own dolls.

But, if a recasting bootleg company got hold of an Allison, I'm sure they'd be happy to churn out my baby for $200-$250 a pop instead of the $300-$350 he'll be retailing at in JS.

<3

-Kiki-chan78.

[OkamiKodomo]

I wasn't saying that. Quite the opposite. The recasters prove that the actual production isn't that much of the price and MH proves that designing them doesn't add much either. The only thing that accounts for their price is the "limited-ness" of it and there really is no reason they should be so limited despite causing DoA to have shitfits that "anyone could have a doll".

There is actually so much wrong with that statement that I have to say something more. Not that you're necessarily wrong, just your information appears to be, which leads to incorrect conclusions. Firstly: Mattel is NOT a company to really compare to. They have a TEAM of designers that are paid a salary to design concepts for the company, and that salary is not really factored much into the selling price of the doll, but into the company's overall budget (which delves into corporate economics, which is another discussion entirely). Dolls, games, merchandise of all sorts; Mattel is such an insanely huge company that it's unfair to compare the $25 dollar retail price of MH dolls and Barbies to the multi-digit price tag that bjd command. These things are mass-produced in factories all over the world. That still doesn't make recasting their stuff "right" but it also has absolutely nothing to do with why playline dolls are so much cheaper than BJD. I have stated that there are certain circumstances where I would buy a recast, but the instances are few, and actually has nothing to do with where the original doll came from, or how many were made. It is the simple fact that I, personally, find it less disgusting to give my money to a recaster, than pay the insane prices people ask for some discontinued dolls on the market place. To me, it seems phenomenally unfair that an owner makes more of a profit on their dirty, damaged, often incomplete doll, than the original company did.

[dhawktx]

<snip>

Most of the 'big' companies have a fixed capacity of dolls that they can make in any given period of time. Lowering the prices would mean LOTS more people will purchase the dolls, which will create a backlog of work and unhappy customers.

If they start cranking out more dolls than they can comfortably produce, mistakes will happen. Which will again result in unhappy customers.

One of the reasons that recasters have such lower prices, is they aren't paying for the prototyping part of the doll manufacturing, nor are they having to deal with retail mark-up. Most recast sites, are that. There are no further overhead costs.

For those that think prototyping out a doll doesn't add much to the cost... before getting to the *first* resin casting phase, Allison cost around $600-$800 in prints and re-prints.<snip>

I'd LOVE to slap a $500 retail price tag on my boy. If I thought people would pay it, I WOULD. Unfortunately, 1:3 scale dolls that retail in the $400 price range are harder to sell.

Since my boys are going through Junkyspot, I don't get paid retail for my boys. I get paid a wholesale price. Their casting is then paid for out of that wholesale price. By the time everything is said and done, I only get about 10%-20% of the retail cost. This is for my own dolls.

But, if a recasting bootleg company got hold of an Allison, I'm sure they'd be happy to churn out my baby for $200-$250 a pop instead of the $300-$350 he'll be retailing at in JS.

<3

-Kiki-chan78.

Kiki, you left out ONE VERY IMPORTANT COST. How many HOURS did YOU spend: Designing, refining, redesigning, modifying, scrapping and starting over, designing some more, refining some more. Making molds. Casting, clean-up, refining. How many HOURS did you labor? Now, just put that to minimum wage and see how much it 'cost' you. Multiply that times the amount of money you SHOULD have been paid and I think you will easily quadruple the true cost of bringing Allison to market.

[kittyasauras]

I think it's a little different comparing an amateur sculptor to a professional one. The same with artist run companies and normal companies.
Now, don't get me wrong, it still does take a long time. I'm not saying it doesn't, but someone who sculpts for a living (whether that person is a teacher or an artist, ect) can do it faster than just a hobbyist. Just hang out on sculpting forums like The Joint and you'll see what I mean. They post and say "I did this all today", sure they have a lot of work to do, but the more you have it looking like a doll in the first step...the less time you have to spend on it.

In artist dolls, the artist is the one that makes all the molds, draws the dolls prototypes, sculpts them, casts them..etc. But with company dolls, there is more than one person that makes a single doll; so I think it's a little unfair to compare the two.

In the recast community, people aren't really keen on buying artist doll recasts. It's just wrong to them. The recasts that are mostly available are REALLY popular dolls. Like Soom, Volks, Fairyland...etc

And for the record, some recasts do come with copies of the papers that the legit ones come with. So just having the papers is not a good enough way to tell the real from the fake. On recasts, usually the inside of the dolls is messy and uneven, but not always. On places like headcaps where names are stamped into the resin, it's usually less prominent. And the majority of the time recasts are slightly shorter than the real thing.

All in all, you just have to be careful in what you buy. : )

[Yanagi-sen]

I think it's a little different comparing an amateur sculptor to a professional one. The same with artist run companies and normal companies.
Now, don't get me wrong, it still does take a long time. I'm not saying it doesn't, but someone who sculpts for a living (whether that person is a teacher or an artist, ect) can do it faster than just a hobbyist. Just hang out on sculpting forums like The Joint and you'll see what I mean. They post and say "I did this all today", sure they have a lot of work to do, but the more you have it looking like a doll in the first step...the less time you have to spend on it.

In artist dolls, the artist is the one that makes all the molds, draws the dolls prototypes, sculpts them, casts them..etc. But with company dolls, there is more than one person that makes a single doll; so I think it's a little unfair to compare the two.

I certainly hope you aren't implying that Kiki-chan's Sweet Dolls isn't a real 'company' just because it is new? She is a professional. This is her full-time job. This is what she paid ridiculous amounts of money to go to school for. She took the 3D design and advertising and business courses just to create Sweet Dolls. I imagine most of the big name doll companies got their start this way. One person, or a couple people, doing everything themselves, and hoping that consumers would like what they were creating. I'm also sure with many of these companies, it is STILL one person that designs the doll, creates the prototype, and brings it to the table for consideration. The production end might have more people involved, but each new doll (especially if they are starting into a new size) is still the labor of love for one or a very small group of people.

Considering an 'artist run company' not in the same category as a 'normal' company, makes me wonder what is considered normal?