It's an empty universe for those who want feedback (RANT)

[ChelseaWhiteArt]

Maybe I'm just frustrated but it certainly feels like I'm not getting anywhere when it comes to feedback for my work. Being artistic and skilled at fabricating nice things out of what is readily available is my only real claim and I find it disturbing that I have been a registered user on Deviant art for five years, utilize getwatchers.com, belong to eight different clubs, I give honest but encouraging feedback yet receive none in return. Yes, I feel like a whiner but hell, sometimes it is helpful to hear from somebody other than your mother or best friend that you are good at what you do. By the way telling someone that what they sculpted looks like a "naughty toy" does not count as constructive criticism, sadly that was the high point of my day yesterday. Having my work acknowledged as "naughty" looking is better than nothing at all.

Maybe my interests are too different from others, or maybe something about the way I type makes individuals surfing the internet feel uncomfortable. I have no idea anymore. I just wish I could get back a tiny bit of what I give to other artists. In the last two months my deviant art account has become little more than a place for me to host images.

I should know better, I'm doing wrong by not drawing Bleach and Naruto or writing silly fanfiction about unlikely pairings in those shows, then I would get a never ending slew of feedback, watches, faves, comments... Those stupid little llama badges too which I detest. Sorry people I like to create realism and perfect a style of my own, not stand on the shoulders of other well discovered anime artists. I don't even like anime all that much anyway.

Also I have no idea how this happens but in some cases people who NEED the constructive criticism to improve because their art needs allot of work get nothing but short sweet little no brainer compliments and a slew of favorites while somebody with the drive and skill to improve and help others improve has to give the constructive criticism and then be spammed by a million people who are angry at you for pointing out areas that need a little help. Heck I even use the compliment sandwich routine, find something nice to say about it first, then criticism, then another compliment.

Before I got here to dollieh sanctuary I was already getting a little lax with talking to other creators and artists because I guess I'm just getting resentful and feeling like there's no point in it because the world is a selfish, narcissistic self absorbed child that wont give me back my lollypop.

This isn't just a deviant art thing though. Facebook, other art sites, art classes, where I post images of the tattoos I have done... And it has happened here occasionally too. It just seems like a very lonely empty universe.

[IzabethS]

I know what you mean. I've been on DA for over 9 years now, and have a bunch of watchers that I've accumulated over the course of those years. But I rarely get many favorites, and rarely any comments on my work, whether it be drawings, sketches, or doll face ups. My doll face ups get more attention than my illustrations that I slave over even more.

Don't get me wrong, I love working on dolls and it's a passion, but I'd like a comment on my other artwork too. Even in my illustration classes at art school I get criticism, but not constructive critique by anyone but teachers. It's frustrating, but I know that's just how it is. I at least love my comic class this semester and it's very enjoyable.

I think it's funny (and sad) that fan art, no matter how good or lousy, always gets more attention than simply good quality work. I'm not saying I'm amazing, but a little compliment or constructive criticism would be nice.

I try not to whine about it, but I completely understand your stand point.

[ChelseaWhiteArt]

I know the feeling. I love doing what I do, being the creator, seeing the end result of my work and being able to hold it in my hands. I love that feeling. I just hate trying to show the world what I made feeling very much like a preschool child with a macaroni art and later just feeling like the invisible artist, and it is clear to me that you have the same issue here.

Thanks so much dear, it's horrible but it feels better to know that there are other empty universes out there. Hey why don't you link me to your deviant art page. I'll have a look through your stuff.

[Nella]

I'm a photographer more than any other visual artist nowadays but I'm on the other side of this problem. I see so many beautiful original artworks and find that all I can say is that it's pretty. Even when the artist, in the description of the piece, asks for constructive critiscm I struggle to add something. I usually don't know what they were trying to do or what feeling they wanted to convey. What parts do they want feedback on so I have a idea of where to start.

[ChelseaWhiteArt]

I'm not so great with photography. I can tell you if the lighting needs help but really, if it is nature photography It is hard to find something to say about it because imperfections are what make nature perfect to start with. At some point in photography when things are as beautiful as you can imagine, I would just start by telling the artist what does not need improvement at all, and which bits of the image are your favorite. Sometimes even I tend to take a step back if it is not a genre I like all that much and look at it from the standpoint of someone who might want to market a genre, would that image be suitable for the means? If so then it is a good example of art in its' category.

[DollyKim]

~takes a deep breath~ Go to You Tube and look for Just One Person by The Muppets. That is the greatest song in the universe. Occasionally mix with Ricky Nelson's Garden Party. Here's my DA if you want to look http://dollykim.deviantart.com, not all of it, just the stuff that ends up over there.

Are you making the art and writing the stories you want? Does it hurt anyone else or yourself? If no then keep doing it. Have you put a slide show of your pictures up on You Tube? I've put up a few videos of me working live time and when you filter out the arses, only allow comments with approval, you will find there are people who love watching artists at work.

I understand feeling invisible to a kid's macaroni art, I have been passed over for someone who throws dog crap at a canvas. At the only "art show" I ever did someone stole one of my pieces. I also have a theoretical physics theory that if I don't look at things I don't like or make me uncomfortable, don't read bad reviews, and don't remember the bad things in life they don't exist. (by which I mean not dwelling on sad and bad stuff) I remember the time at work I ran in to a hero and traded a sketch for a kiss, I keep a printed copy of the Email from a muse in my purse saying how he loves a script, I remind myself how brave I was to tell someone twice my size I made a doll of them.

You're on the right path with your 'look at this beautiful thing I've made!' attitude.

[ChelseaWhiteArt]

~takes a deep breath~ Go to You Tube and look for Just One Person by The Muppets. That is the greatest song in the universe. Occasionally mix with Ricky Nelson's Garden Party. Here's my DA if you want to look http://dollykim.deviantart

.com, not all of it, just the stuff that ends up over there.

Are you making the art and writing the stories you want? Does it hurt anyone else or yourself? If no then keep doing it. Have you put a slide show of your pictures up on You Tube? I've put up a few videos of me working live time and when you filter out the arses, only allow comments with approval, you will find there are people who love watching artists at work.

I understand feeling invisible to a kid's macaroni art, I have been passed over for someone who throws dog crap at a canvas. At the only "art show" I ever did someone stole one of my pieces. I also have a theoretical physics theory that if I don't look at things I don't like or make me uncomfortable, don't read bad reviews, and don't remember the bad things in life they don't exist. (by which I mean not dwelling on sad and bad stuff) I remember the time at work I ran in to a hero and traded a sketch for a kiss, I keep a printed copy of the Email from a muse in my purse saying how he loves a script, I remind myself how brave I was to tell someone twice my size I made a doll of them.

You're on the right path with your 'look at this beautiful thing I've made!' attitude.

I'm drawing and creating the things that make me happy and stimulate the creative parts of my brain, I would rather not draw, sculpt or render anything harmful, offensive or generally upsetting. I think the most offending thing I have ever put up somewhere is a rhino with her horns sawed off, gorily. *cough* It was to help bring attention to the fact that poaching rhino for their horns is at an all time high in south Africa.

I don't like writing negative things either, not when I critique someones work. If I don't have a single nice thing to say then I just don't say anything because I guess I would rather be polite then make somebody feel totally like crap.

Thanks for your feedback though, it helps and I wonder. Were you passed over by a person that literally throws dog excrement at a canvas? I just don't doubt that some person out there would but really? I'm looking through your gallery now on DA by the way. I'm also sorry to hear that you have had your work stolen, I think we have all been there, last year I had $3,000 in equipment stolen by my boss. Found out four months after he and my stuff vanished that he hocked it.

[magkelly]

I was raised in such a way that if I really didn't care for something I wasn't supposed to say say so. If you can't say something nice, et all. I've not seen your work so this isn't a personal commentary, it's just a statement of how I can be when it comes to not commenting on the work of other people. I still have that in the back of my head though, don't comment, keep it to yourself, blah, blah, and I think a lot of people just do that. They refrain from comment if they see something that they can't particularly relate to. It's not personal. It's just that they don't feel comfortable even commenting unless they for some reason LOOOOOOVE it and are way enthusiastic about telling you so.

As a photographer I don't compete like some people in my field do. I don't like seeing what I do in that way. I feel I will get the business my work deserves and I won't get into turf wars and such with other photographers in my area. The only person I like to challenge is myself and I tend to know when I am getting better at something, or when I do need a little advice. I seldom compete in contests and the like and I don't show much of my stuff online. In fact the stuff that's my best, or that's commercial I tend not to just put it up for review. If I do share something and I want feedback or advice I usually will say so up front. Most of the time when I do put up my photos on my photo boards I usually do it with the not asking for commentary setting. I'm just sharing. I don't want the critique really, but of course some will offer it anyhow.

Deviant Art and places like it are a catch 22 situation. On one hand it's a virtual gallery and you get attention from being there. Maybe can even sell some of your work via that juncture, but I've also had one of my best photos outright stolen from a site like that once and I was not happy about it because it was one of the few shots that I had done at that point that I wanted to sell as stock and seeing someone else's name on it, and the photo put up for sale by that person elsewhere it really pissed me off. The whole situation was resolved but not really to my liking and after that I seldom used my account at all. I have a professional view site I am working on now but I'm definitely a lot more careful than I used to be about posting my photography online now. I don't feel the exposure is necessarily worth it in some ways.

People online they can be very toxic and I've noticed that on boards, on galleries like DA, on places like Reddit, You Tube there can be a lot of people who just live to troll. I think a lot of people just feel this backlash from all that going on. They don't want to offer constructive comment for fear of being seen as negative. Plus you're one fish in a sea of a lot of fish. How many people actually go to DA or places like it and really browse the art work? I actually do sometimes, but I think a lot of people go there very casually. They're just looking for a quick wallpaper or whatever. Lurkers are probably the norm there and the other people offering up their work are probably more interested in their own work being seen than in seeing the work of others. To them anyone else on there, that's their competition.

I've been crafting, making jewelry and stuff to sell at craft fairs for years. What I used to do has become so common now as a hobby that I've had to reassess what I do several times and adjust, even outright change my work just to keep it fresh. Too many people at the shows doing what I used to. If I still did it I'd not be the only person selling that anymore, I'd just be one of 5 or 10. I've definitely noticed that the value of my work, no matter what it is has gone down in the eyes of a lot of people. They just don't think of it as work. Because they sell a lot of the supplies at Micheal's it's like they think I'm playing now instead of really creating.

Fact is I go all over looking for interesting components for my stuff. I don't just go to Micheal's look at the stuff on a shelf and just throw something together the way I see a lot of people at the crafts fairs do. I actually design and make a lot of my focus things with polymer and metal and lately I'm also starting to cast resin and things like that. Some of my materials might come from the local craft or art store but it's my thing I'm doing and it's unique to me, or I try to make it so. But I seldom get credit for that. People just want to know how I did it so they can do it themselves and not buy from me. The local Micheal's they've asked me in several times to teach a class about something I am doing because I've brought a project in while looking for something I needed. They just don't seem to get why I don't want everyone coming into the store doing exactly what I am doing. I'm just supposed to teach everyone else how for $30 a class and put myself out of business I guess.

I'm constantly having to come up with new ideas just to keep ahead and I've more than once done something unusual at one show only to come back and see someone copying me trying to do what I was doing the last show so they can take my place. It's this constant dog eat dog mentality, and it really has taken a lot of the fun out of doing that kind of work for me. It's the same online. People learn from other people and instead of giving them credit due they just try to do it themselves and copy them. They don't want to give input for fear you might be more successful than they are. It's stupid and selfish but it's definitely a trend.

Bottom line people can be stupid like that. Our culture, and particularly our online culture lately is very competitive and selfish and cliquish you're going to meet more people who won't care about you or your work than not. I'm always very glad to meet people who are not like that. They are pretty rare these days I think, particularly online but I don't feel I can expect to get a whole lot of support from the "general populace" as it were. One of the reasons I finally landed on this doll board and stopped lurking like I do on most I look at was because I actually saw a lot of genuinely nice people on here and I didn't see a whole lot of the clique stuff or competition going on here. I liked that. No one expects perfection here and when you do something, even if it's not up to the standards some of the best work seen here it's encouraged and what criticism there is is honest but also kind. I wish all places could be like this one, but it's a fact they're not.

DA has it's share of nicer people, honest people who could give you praise and/or constructive criticism I am sure, but can they actually manage to get out of their comfort zone to actually comment? That's the question. I'll gladly go and look if you like though. I have no problems with doing that now that I know you are on there. Okay? (I just found you on there. Will check back in a bit....)

[kenaiqueen]

I can understand your frustration. I've had my fanfics pretty much passed over for years in favor of those who write porn. I've written a few that are more explicit and those seem to get more attention, so I'm pretty sure that's at least a factor.

But as one who blindly stumbled into the net some years back, I naively gave honest feedback to someone and got totally blistered for it. I felt it was kind as I mentioned what I thought was good and what I thought needed improvement equally. Among other nasty shots, I got told since the quality of my fics wasn't as good as theirs, whatever I had to say wasn't valid. (At the time, I hadn't posted anything so they obviously hadn't taken the time to check.) Mind you, this was a friend of a friend who INSISTED they wanted honest criticism. She really didn't...she just wanted the strokes. So I can understand when people are reluctant to say anything even faintly critical in fear of being browbeaten in return.

After having been ripped a new one, I quit giving honest feedback. And sometimes, if I have nothing new to add, I don't bother either. (I love the 'kudos' button on AO3 for just that reason.)

I was a member of RWA for a time and we did critiques in person at our meetings. Hard as it is to get bad written feedback, it's worse in person, but you learn to listen and I did learn a lot from that time. I feel it went a long way to help my writing style. I've published two kids books and the last couple rejections on my adult novels all say they didn't care for the story or characters, but they also said my writing was good and they'd be willing to read something else from me, so I know it's not the quality of my fanfics that make me invisible.

I'd suggest you try to find a mentor or group you can join where you'd get that feedback you need. Even taking a small class in the same or a related field could help.

One other thought...DA is the one website I can't get to load properly on my computer. I've quit looking at art there because I have either wait so long, or I get frustrated trying to get things to show up. I've tried all three of my browsers and none of them work well for me on that site and it's the only one I have trouble with. Maybe consider finding another venue to display your work.

[DollyKim]

The dog crap thing isn't literal but when I was trying to get my stuff out there it would be passed over for just about anything else. Personally I can't stand it when someone paints a dot on a canvas or spends all of five seconds wiping their brush on one and gets recognized, supported, and all that stuff. I hate that when I just dislike kids' macaroni art getting attention.

Back in my Hollywood days the most attention I ever got for my art was when I printed drawings on the front of home made playing cards to keep my deck from being taken, I also put them on the backs of my business cards.